Dr. Margaret Leinen 

So, my name is Margaret Leinen. I'm a paleo-oceanographer and paleo-climatologist. So, I study the history of the ocean, the history of climate, and how they interact. And I am a professor of oceanography at Scripps Institution of Oceanography at the University of California, San Diego. I also have the privilege of serving as the director of Scripps Institution of Oceanography and Vice Chancellor for Marine Science at UC San Diego. 

​

Anya Sun 

Wow, that's really impressive. So, what made you choose your career path? 

​

Dr. Margaret Leinen 

Well, I had been very interested in geology in high school, and I was fortunate to go to a high school that actually offered a course in geology. And so, when I went away to college, I sort of stumbled around with some other kinds of science, like chemistry, and so forth. I knew I wanted to be a scientist. And then, I took a college geology course and the faculty member who was in charge of that course had a custom of having an undergraduate student assistant. And at the end of the spring, he came to me, and he said, “If you're interested, I'd like to have you be a student assistant for me next year.” Not a teaching assistant, a research assistant, and so at the time I was making money by working in the dish room at the dormitory. So, you know, I was wearing a white dress, and by the time that I finished, I smelled like garbage. So, going to do some research was just really appealing.  

As I worked with him, he would send me to the library to get information about things, read them, and then he would ask my opinion about them. And I also helped with some work in the field. So, that was really an opportunity for me, for the first time, to see what it would be like to actually be a geologist and do that kind of work. And so, I fell in love with it.  

I got an undergraduate degree in geology, and one of the things that I did was study rocks that form in water, sedimentary rocks. And this was long enough ago that there wasn't a lot of oceanography going on. It seemed to me as though as long as we were talking about sediments that formed close to shore, like beaches, deltas, rivers, and so forth, people could interpret the past, but when it came to the ocean, they really didn't know. So, I thought, “Oh, I'll go off and study oceanography in Graduate School, I'll learn about all this and then go back as a geologist.” But I never went back. I fell in love with oceanography. 

​

Anya Sun 

That sounds really cool. So, were there any, like, specific moments in your career that really inspired or motivated you? 

​

Dr. Margaret Leinen 

Yeah, I think that I told you that my undergraduate experience doing research was amazing. For example, the faculty member that I worked for was making these big maps of geology of a certain time period across the whole US. And he would have me go to the library and read up on a particular area, and when I would come back to him, he would say, “Well, where should we put the line around the boundary of this particular kind of rock or this particular environment?” And he was relying on me to actually do the research. And it was my line that went on the map. It's a huge responsibility. He was going to publish that map. That was really the time when I said, “Oh, I can do this. If this person trusts me to do this, I can do this.”  

And then another time was the first time that I saw a female faculty member. In this area, there were no female faculty in the geology department. I was at the University of Illinois, and I think there were like 25-30 faculty members. None of them were women. And they had a seminar series, and a woman who was a faculty member, actually at Scripps, where I am now, came and gave a talk. She was amazing. I could understand everything she said. She was, you know, very confident, and that was the first time that I saw a woman be a researcher. All the men were asking her questions, and nobody was putting her down. And so that was also really important for me to see. You know, that could be me.  

A third example is when I was a beginning graduate student, and there was going to be a one-week cruise. I was at Oregon State, and we were going to go into coastal waters in Oregon and do this field work. We were going to take samples and so forth. And so, I was just a brand-new graduate student. I've had one oceanography course in my life, and it was very, very general. And now I was going to go out, and I had no idea what my experience would be. So, I went out and I helped collect samples, I helped to run the instruments that were bringing back data and, you know, at sea we operate 24/7, so there were times when it was the middle of the night, and I was responsible for operating a certain instrument that was gathering data. There was nobody else there. You know, if I didn't do it right, the data wouldn't be right. And so that too gave me this sense that people trusted me. They were counting on me. And so, I think all of those examples were different kinds of examples, but they were ones where I could see that people like me could do it, that I could do it, and that was really empowering. 

​

Anya Sun 

Yeah, that sounds like a really good experience. So, when you initially entered your field, were there any struggles that made you reconsider your career choice? And also, if there were, how did you like push through that? 

​

Dr. Margaret Leinen 

Well, I said that I got interested in this when I took a geology course in college, and I'd had one in high school. Before this, I thought I was going to be a chemist and I was taking chemistry classes. They were all huge. There would be like 3-4 hundred people in the class. In my first chemistry class, there were only five women and there were 350 men. There weren't very many people like me. In the discussions section that went along with that lecture, I was the only woman in it.  

There wasn't anybody that listened to me, you know, the fact that I was doing very well in the class made no difference. You know, I was never called on. So, I went through this with chemistry for a while, and there were just all of these negative signals. So, I went into another area of chemistry, and it was the same. And then I got sick, and I had to drop out of school just before finals in the spring. I had to essentially, you know, keep studying over the summer and then take finals when I came back, and you forget a lot. And that was really a hard term.  

I felt like I didn't belong in chemistry, and I didn't do as well on my finals as I thought I should. So, that was when I was like, “Well, do I really belong here?” I also had to work summers for money to go to school. At the time, remember, I was working in the dish room, and it just seemed like, you know, “Why am I doing this?” So, I sort of flopped around, you know, taking other courses, saying, “Oh, you know, maybe I'll try microbiology, maybe I'll try something else.” And I don't know why it never dawned on me to take a geology course, but I was going to go off and do this.  

So, it was when I was at my absolute lowest, I said, “I've really got to pull up my grade point average. I'm going to take easy courses for one semester, to pull up my grade point average. So, I'll take geology because I took it in high school, and I would be able to do really well in that.” And then I took art history because I thought, "This would be easier than science.” And I really loved that course. Instead of taking things that I thought, “Oh, I've got to take this,” I took the things that I really wanted to take, and I got a straight A average that semester and it was just so rewarding.  

I was just in the wrong area. I'm a round peg, and I was trying to fit into a square hole, but if I go after a round hole, everything's going to be fine. I think things are a lot different now. Academic counseling for students is so much better. You know, if you're struggling, there are lots of resources for you, and that really wasn't the case at that time. I could only see the academic counselor once at the beginning of the semester, and it didn't seem like there was anybody to go to.  

But I think people will be caught sooner when they're trying to do things that just don't work for them. But that was a big lesson, you know. And lots of people say this; they say, "Go after the things that you love doing, because that will make you love what you're studying. It will make you love your job.” And I think that ambition and that pleasure from doing something that you really love, go hand in hand. If you can get both of those, you know, then you're in good shape. 

​

Anya Sun 

Yeah, that sounds like a really challenging experience. So, what do you perceive to be like the largest barrier or obstacle to female leadership or just like girls becoming leaders? 

​

Dr. Margaret Leinen 

I still think the most challenging obstacle is giving girls and women examples of people like them. So, you know, we do a lot more in high school now. You know, there's women's sports. I mean there was no women's professional basketball or soccer, there was nothing like that going on. There weren't so many fantastic people in the arts; like the people that are directors of movies or producers of music, not just the singer that's out front. There weren’t any people like me, that love science, who were given opportunities to do science in high school, like internships, research experiences, and things that, that give them that leg up. And so, we really need those experiences. And the thing that I still worry about is that it seems to me that fewer girls get those experiences than they should. 

​

Anya Sun 

Yeah. So, like really just looking for role models or opportunities? 

​

Dr. Margaret Leinen 

Yeah. So, I love programs in our area, like Sally Ride Science, you know. It reaches out to girls about all kinds of science and uses the wonderful example of Sally Ride. She overcame obstacles, she was an astronaut, and afterwards, she was a physicist. She had multiple careers, too.  

And I think that's another thing. If you go into something and that doesn't work, there are lots of other opportunities. It doesn't mean you have to quit and there's no future. You just pivot, and there are lots of ways to help you pivot, too. 

​

Anya Sun 

Yeah. So why do you think that diversity in a workplace is important? And like in particular, gender diversity? 

​

Dr. Margaret Leinen 

Gender diversity is important because only women understand some of the physical and historic things that are issues for women. You know, a man does not understand what it feels like to be pregnant, and the mood swings that go along with it, and just how tired you are. I remember when I was pregnant, I was in undergraduate school at the time. I was washing dishes, and I was really pregnant. You have to lean over, and it was just like, “Oh, if I could just push this to the side, so I could get closer to this, life would be interesting.” And you know, it's all of those things. 

I'm a breast cancer survivor and the first female boss that I ever had, I was already a dean, and she was the provost of the university, so the academic head of the university, and she was a breast cancer survivor. And so, I had chemotherapy, I lost all my hair, and I had a wig. Wigs are wonderful, but during hot weather you sweat under there and my boss could understand what I was going through. 

I'll tell you a hysterical story. I was part of an international science team, I was also on this international committee, and we met in Rio de Janeiro in Brazil. One of the iconic things in Rio is the statue of Christ the Redeemer. It's a big tourist attraction. So, the whole group went up to Christ the Redeemer; I had on my wig, and the wind was blowing like crazy. I had to hold on to my wig to keep it from blowing off, and I came back, and I told my boss about this. Who else would understand what you were going through?  

Maybe it's another female faculty member, maybe it's another woman who is like head of housing and dining at the university, or somebody else like that. But only somebody that has had an experience like yours, it doesn't have to be cancer, it could be pregnancy, or it could be some other thing that has to do with being a woman, can understand, and they can sympathize without excusing you. They can say, “OK, here's what you can do to manage that,” as opposed to saying “Oh, you poor thing. Go home, don't worry” or “Oh, maybe you're in the wrong field.” And that is so important. 

​

Anya Sun 

Yeah. So, like moving on to questions more geared towards high schoolers, what traits do you have that help you deal with the adversity of being a woman in male dominated fields? And also, how would you suggest someone cultivate those traits? 

​

Dr. Margaret Leinen 

Well, I think one thing is that you have to learn how to stick up for yourself without having a chip on your shoulder. So, you know it's just like anything else in life. Let's think about sports. If you're not the best person on your soccer team, but you love to play, you don't want somebody to say, “Oh, that's all right, dear. We'll put you in this difficult situation and make you even more concerned.” So that's being realistic with you, but if it's like, “OK, we're not going to put you in right now because you know you're not the best goaltender and we're down by one, but we are going to put you in at the beginning of the next game so you can get a lot of experience.” So that sense of helping you deal with what you're dealing with without either patronizing you or without encouraging you to go through life angry about what your limitations are, or how you're being treated.  

You know, there's a difference between standing up for yourself and saying, “Excuse me, I'm a goaltender too, and I haven't had a chance to play. And that's not fair. So, I want a chance to play so that I can improve.” As opposed to approaching that by attacking somebody else like, “Oh, I'm going to attack the goaltender that is really good, and somehow undermine her.” So, it's learning how to have people help you learn how to manage all of those things. Stand up for yourself, but do not take it out on other people. 

​

Anya Sun 

Yeah, I definitely agree with that. So, do you think it's important for a high schooler to, like, consider gender imbalances when selecting a career? Or how much weight should someone put on that aspect? Because I know I've gotten some mixed advice about that because some people tell me, “Oh, don't let anything hold you back.” But other people say it might be naive to think like that. 

​

Dr. Margaret Leinen 

I think that that really has a lot to do with how well equipped you are to deal with it. So, I wouldn't use that as an excuse not to go into a field that may be dominated by men. But if you're going to do that, and you are a person who's insecure about yourself, get help. You know, go into it and say, “OK, I'm going to find somebody who can be a coach for me,” whether that's a parent, or a teacher that you had previously who knows how good you are, or whether it's a counselor of some other sort.  

But give yourself the best chance to be successful in that situation. If you're in an area where there aren't very many women, you will stand out just because you are a woman. That will draw attention to you both for the good, and also in places where you may not be as competitive as somebody else. You have to deal with both of those. And so, give yourself every advantage that you can.  

I like these sports analogies because now women are in sports. So, you wouldn't go into a game without all the proper tools, you know. You wouldn't go to a tennis championship and not have a racket that you think is the best racket for your serve and for your stroke. So, don't go into a job without those tools, and the best possible tools that will help you make it through. 

​

Anya Sun 

OK. So, it's really just different for every person. 

​

Dr. Margaret Leinen 

Yeah. So, to use the tennis analogy, you're going to have to play some people that are going to be better than you. And on any given day, you might be able to beat them. But give yourself every advantage, you know, do your practicing, have the best tools, and keep up that positive mindset. You're never going to succeed if you say, “Oh, you know, I'm playing Serena Williams, so of course I'm going to lose.” Give yourself every advantage, do your homework for your job and keep that upbeat demeanor. When you do feel bad about things, or if you haven't succeeded, use those friends, family, coaches, counselors, or whatever to say this is what I did, and I feel so bad about it. They can help you say, “Oh, it was just this one time” or, “Oh here's what you could do so that next time you're prepared.” 

​

Anya Sun 

OK, so for my final question, what advice would you give to other women and like especially high schoolers who want to enter your career field? 

​

Dr. Margaret Leinen 

First of all, every aspect of what you learn in high school will help you with this field. Whether it's the writing program, because a lot of us are writers. We have to write papers, we have to write summaries, we have to write press releases, etcetera. So writing, and obviously the sciences and math.  

But also, all of those other pieces. Understanding government and the way it works, understanding other fields, like the arts. All of it will assist you in the field. And I think that the other thing is trying to take advantage of any experience that you can get where you're actually working with a scientist, or you have the opportunity to do hands-on work. Whether that's in your school, whether it's an after-school activity or a weekend activity, whether it's at an aquaculture company or some other company that's related to the field, or whether it's having an opportunity to do an internship at a university or a nonprofit. So, any of those will give you some more experiences, and it will also strengthen your muscles for how to learn in that environment, or how to deal with difficult people. You're going to deal with difficult people no matter what you do, and if you’ve had some experiences, they'll help you so that later on, it'll be much easier to deal with difficult people.  

​

Anya Sun 

OK. So, really just making the most out of all of your opportunities. OK, so those are all the questions I have for today and thank you so much for meeting with me; I really enjoyed talking to you. 

​

Dr. Margaret Leinen 

Yes. Thanks for the chance to talk with you, and I hope that everybody that sees this will take heart and say, “I can do what I want to do, and I'm just going to go out and find people that will help me do it.” 

​