Ms. Clark 

So, my name is Heidi Clark, and I am working for NASA in the space U engineering group there. I graduated with my bachelor's in mechanical engineering from Michigan State University and my Masters in aeronautics and astronautics engineering from Purdue. 

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Anya Sun 

Wow, that's really impressive. So, what made you choose this specific creative path? 

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Ms. Clark 

Yeah. So, it actually was not a straight career path. A lot of people that I work with who work at NASA really want to work for NASA as their dream job. So, they kind of think about that their entire life. My situation was a little bit different, actually. So, I started out interested in mechanical engineering in high school after I had gone to a woman in engineering program at Michigan Tech University. It was just a summer program that I attended that kind of sparked my interest in engineering.  

I then ended up joining my first robotics team in high school, and I got to be on the build crew, and that was what sparked my interest in mechanical engineering. But from there, I didn't really have a particular interest right away in aerospace; I just was interested in robotics at the time and had that kind of spark of interest in mechanical engineering. So then, I kind of ended up navigating through an internship in the energy industry and two internships in the automotive industry. When I was in my undergrad, I ended up joining the NASA Pathways program, which is what kind of got me really interested in aerospace. So, it was starting, I guess, sometime in undergrad that that initial aerospace interest came into my mind. Then after multiple different internships, I ended up kind of pursuing that and applying to the NASA internship program.  

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Anya Sun 

That's really cool. So, like, was there a specific moment in your career that really inspired or motivated you? 

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Ms. Clark 

I think it wasn't necessarily one thing. It's kind of a combination of things over time. And walking through different internship experiences and really getting to see what I liked, and also importantly what I didn't like. So, I had one internship where I did a lot of coding for example. So, I worked a lot in MATLAB, doing a lot of programming, and although I had a computer science minor in my bachelor's degree, I ended up realizing through that internship that I wouldn't want to program every day of my life. That's just an example of one of many things that I learned while going through different internships that I didn't want to do, and that kind of helped lead me into the place that I did want to go.  

The other things I think that helped kind of guide me into where I wanted to go were definitely working with mentors. So, mentorship is really important and connecting with someone in your field who has more experience than you and just learning about what a future career path in this area looks like. And based on that, that might help a person really decide on what they're interested in or not. So, for me, I had a mentor in one of my internships in the automotive industry who ended up being very influential and had me kind of evaluating where I was at and deciding that wasn't something for me. Then, kind of figuring out well, what other interests do I have and where could I explore what do I want to do instead. So, I think it's a combination of things. There wasn't necessarily one moment in time that my entire plan changed or anything like that. It was kind of just over time and talking with different people and having different experiences. 

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Anya Sun 

I get that too because in my computer science class I kind of realized that coding wasn't like for me. You kind of touched upon this already, but were there any specific people or like mentors that made a significant impact on you? 

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Ms. Clark 

Yeah. So, like I was just mentioning, one of my mentors was in the automotive industry and I got close to him. He was very influential because starting out in my internship at that time, he really helped outline to me what the career path at that company would look like; what would I have to do to get there. And then once I got there, what would be the steps in terms of my professional growth, what kind of projects would I be working on, what would my salary look like, what would my responsibilities? So, working with him, I really got to see that picture.  

I actually went back to that same company for a second internship and stayed connected with that mentor that I had previously had. I learned through interacting with him over time and just looking at what he was doing in his job and realizing he was kind of following that ideal career path that I myself was looking to maybe do, that the work life balance at that company wasn't what I was looking for. I didn't have the same passion for automotive that I think other people in that industry did. And that mentorship really helped make me realize that, you know, maybe I need to explore something outside of this company.  

And I had an interest in space at the time, and I really didn't expect it to become anything. I just kind of applied to the NASA internship program and was able to get in. Once I actually got to NASA and started doing my internships, I realized that this is where my passion lied. And so that mentorship just kind of started out as a small thing, but ended up growing into my career path and really helped me make a big decision later on. 

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Anya Sun 

Yeah. So, when you entered this field, were there any struggles that made you reconsider your career choice? 

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Ms. Clark 

I don't remember ever really reconsidering engineering. My path within engineering changed significantly from when I first selected to pursue a mechanical engineering degree to where I am now. I don't think there was ever really a point I reconsidered it.  

So, I'll backtrack. Starting in high school and even before that, I had kind of always thought that I wanted to be in the medical industry. I thought that I wanted to maybe go into veterinary school or nursing, and it wasn't until probably halfway through high school that I realized I wasn't a fan of needles. I wasn't going to do well in the medical field, and from that, I really was pretty open to anything. I didn't have, particularly, anything in mind until I had attended that Women in Engineering camp.  

After that point and joining my first robotics team, eventually pursuing mechanical engineering became my vision. I didn't really turn back on engineering at all. I went into college thinking I wanted to pursue specifically robotics and robotic prosthetics, and how they kind of connect to the neurological system for patients. I kind of was thinking at the time that I could combine my interest in the medical field with engineering and pursue some type of path that is kind of really a blend of biomechanical or biomedical engineering and mechanical engineering. And so, I started out there thinking that's what I wanted to do. 

 My first internship in the energy industry was completely different than that idea. And that was just the opportunity that came along at that time. From there, I steered into the automotive industry because I had an interest at the time in autonomous vehicles. Then like I mentioned, I eventually got to space, so I don't really think I ever turned back on my interest in engineering as a whole or mechanical engineering. 

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Anya Sun 

So, if any, what kind of adversaries have you faced because of your gender or background? 

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Ms. Clark 

Yeah. So, I personally don't feel like I've experienced a lot of adversaries, as you called it, because of my gender. I definitely know people who have. I think that there's definitely people who will give their opinion. I just tend to take that as more motivation than anything else. So, I've definitely over the years gotten comments or just little statements made towards me that definitely could have been perceived as because of my gender. This person was making whatever comment, but the way that I've always liked to look at things, and I think this is just into my personality, is that I like to prove people wrong. And so, if people try to doubt me or try to kind of limit me based on what they see on the outside, I like to make that my personal motivation to then prove them wrong and do it anyway. Like there were definitely comments that were made along the way, but there wasn't any like serious adversary that I had throughout my path. It was kind of one-off things and over time I've just brushed them off and I don't let them kind of get under my skin. 

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Anya Sun 

Yeah, that's a great perspective. So, what do you perceive to be the largest barrier to female leadership or just girls like entering these male dominated fields? 

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Ms. Clark 

That's a really good question. I think that depends. There are some barriers that can come from systemically, just the situation that maybe you grew up in. But then I also think that there are, you know, glass ceilings. Maybe those glass ceilings are more of a perceived glass ceiling and not necessarily a real glass ceiling. So, at one of the companies I worked at, I felt that sense of a perceived glass ceiling. I can't necessarily outright say that there was a glass ceiling, but to me, looking up at the upper levels of leadership, there were not women at this company in leadership. And so, it was something that I was perceiving. It might not necessarily have been there, but I think part of that was just the history of that industry. 

But ultimately, I think my personal outlook on this entire topic is no matter your background, it all comes down to you as an individual, and whether you had a difficult situation growing up. And that could be in many different ways financially, in your household, or in the neighborhood you grew up in. Everyone has a unique situation, but no matter all of those things, I think at the end of the day people have the opportunity to really work hard and push themselves. If you work for it, you can accomplish it. That's kind of my perspective.  

So, you know, you can really achieve anything you set your mind to if you just put in the effort. I think there's a saying that goes, “Hard work beats talent when talent doesn't work hard.” I like to think of that as a motto sometimes. Despite your background, or your situation, or what you perceive, or how your organization is structured, if you work hard and try to stand out, I think there's an opportunity for everyone to grow and be a leader. 

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Anya Sun 

Yeah, that's really insightful. So why do you think diversity in a workplace is important? And like in particular in the gender aspect? 

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Ms. Clark 

Yeah, I definitely think diversity is extremely important in the workplace. So, from an engineering perspective, engineers are designing products that have to be applicable to everyone. So, it doesn't matter what the person's gender is or what the person's background is. The products that engineers are making have to be used by everyone. So, how do you create a product that's usable by everyone? Well, I think you need to have everyone's input into creating that product. That can vary across every industry that there is because engineers are basically involved in building everything out there. But I think that it's really important to have everyone's perspectives and everyone's ideas come to the table, so that you're able to create products that work for everyone. 

At NASA that actually relates to the work that I do now. Because at NASA, I'm working on the team that designs the space suit for launch and entry. That space suit has to be worn by the astronauts that NASA as an agency selects, and in order to accommodate a variety of different people that NASA could select, we have to be able to design a space suit that can fit people of all sizes, men and women, and all kinds of different body types. So, I think that, as an engineer, you really have to have diversity at the table to get the perspectives and the ideas that you need in order to design something that will work for everyone. 

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Anya Sun 

OK, so what initiatives do you think people can take to promote gender equality? 

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Ms. Clark 

Yeah, I think to improve gender equality, that kind of goes back to what I was talking about before. My kind of motto is just to work hard. So, for me, as a female in whatever stem field you're in, it's best to just kind of put your best foot forward and always work hard to show what you can achieve. I think as a whole that contributes to people's mindsets. If there are people who are kind of specifically doubting what a woman could do, and then they see a woman who's operating very successfully in their job, then I think that helps kind of curb that mindset a bit. So, on an individual level, I think it's just in the way that you work and perform your daily job and your daily tasks. 

Then on an organizational level, I think that there's a lot of ways that organizations can help support a variety of different people in the workplace. So, at NASA, there are groups called employee resource groups, and a lot of other companies have similar types of groups where people of identities will join different affinity groups. So, one of them at NASA is an entire group is focused on women in NASA. We all kind of get together and just discuss things in the workplace and experiences. Sometimes it's just a social thing too, but there's definitely a lot of groups like that in organizations.  

And then even at the college level, there are student organizations such as the Society of Women Engineers, and there are plenty of other women focus groups at colleges that you can join to really find that home, if that's what you're looking for. So, for me, that was the Society of Women Engineers I joined when I was a freshman at Michigan State. I participated all through graduation. In that organization, and it was extremely influential in my career path. And I think that that organization as a whole kind of does just what you're saying; it helps bring women together and really just talk about different career opportunities. And they also have conferences where you can go and sit through all kinds of workshops like almost anything you can really think of. It's very inspiring to be a part of these women focused organizations. So, I think that that also really helps from an organizational level to kind of fight that gender disparity. 

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Anya Sun 

Yeah, that's really cool. So, I know that you kind of talked about how you don't let comments get to you, and how you just focus on working hard. But how do you suggest people cultivate those types of traits? 

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Ms. Clark 

That's an interesting question because my perspective has always been that it's kind of inherent to who you are. But I think there's definitely ways right that you can also build that skill. And I think that it's kind of a muscle that you have to work. I think having mentors is really important because mentors can show you ways and give you feedback that you didn't know you needed. That can help you improve and help you grow into the skills that you need or improve upon the skills that you have. So, I think mentorship really helps.  

And then also building that muscle of being organized with yourself, having a schedule, and that commitment of working hard. Whether you're in college and you consistently go to study rooms or form study groups with friends in order to complete your assignments. You don't have to be the smartest person in the room, but if you surround yourself with the smartest people, you can get the answers that you need. You can grow, and I think that's part of working hard and kind of gaining the skill set that you need.  

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Anya Sun 

And just for our final question, what advice would you give to other women or like specifically high schoolers who want to enter your career field? 

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Ms. Clark 

I think that my biggest advice, outside of the things that I've talked about right, is that you can be a planner. I'm a big planner. I want to plan everything really far in advance. When I was in high school, I wanted to know exactly what I was doing. I wanted to know exactly what degree I was going to get, what career I was going to have, how much I was going to make, you know, all of those things. But you have to really allow yourself to be open to opportunities and allow your path to kind of weave and unwind naturally. So, I guess that piece of advice is, don't feel like you have to really have all of those plans set and keep them set in stone over time. It's definitely OK for your plans to change.  

I think it is good to have a plan. I think it's good to plan in advance and think about what your goals are and think about you know what your dreams are, what you're passionate about. But I think ultimately, no matter what your plan is, it’s going to change because you're going to get opportunities that you didn't expect to get. So, allow those opportunities to guide you in your path. Take on those jobs that maybe initially don't sound super interesting to you but try them out. Maybe you'll love them, maybe you'll hate them. If you hate them, that's fine. Now you can go to the next thing. If you don't like this other thing, at least you tried it, and I think that that ultimately helps when you do find your passion. It helps you value it more. My advice would be just to plan, but don't over plan and be open to change and be open to new opportunities. 

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Anya Sun 

OK. So, just really keep an open mind? 

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Ms. Clark 

Yeah. 

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Anya Sun 

OK, so that's all the questions that I have for today and thank you so much for meeting with me. 

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Ms. Clark 

Yeah, no problem. I hope it was helpful. And yeah, it was great to meet you. 

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